Siren Island: Nice Place to Visit, But...
To visit Siren Island, you must merely be courageous enough to find it, and curious enough to enter. It is similar to a woman visiting Savage Island or really any island in the Powerfully Ultimate Archipelago. She is welcomed as a great curiosity.
As a man, you're presence will be admitted. But understand that it will upset the delicate feminine harmony. Does this mean you should carefully tiptoe around ensuring that you don't offend anyone? Of course not. Where's the masculinity in that? How can this group of women trust you if you are censoring your perspective?
In short, you are self monitoring and 'outcome dependent.' As they say on Ile du Amorata: "Stop trying to make other people comfortable."
One day I visited Siren Island. I brought along my wit, my charm, and my opinions. Understand that my opinions have been saturated by a lot of conscious experience. This makes them particularly potent, as you shall see.
During my visit I was allowed to participate in the most revered custom of Siren Island. In this ritual, the queen brings forth a story as an offering to the populace. Within this story is contained a timeless question of great importance and the queen's sagely wisdom.
The gathered women then descend upon the story and begin the ceremonial practice of dissecting it. As the story, and the question, and the wisdom are all broken down and examined, more stories arise, more questions are created, and more wisdom is shared. The breakdown and subsequent scrutiny can continue for days.
So the queen put forth her story and I was intrigued by the question and her wisdom.
The question was essentially: If an ex lover attempts to come back into your life, what should you do?
The queen's wisdom:
"I’m just going to say this straight out, because we’ve talked before and I know I can be tough with you — DUMP HIM. Stop talking to him. You don’t need another friend, especially not a MALE friend..."
"If you’re hurt over a man, you’re not over him. I don’t care how long ago it was. And talking to him again will only re-open the wound."
"Letting him worm his way back into your waking life puts HIM in YOUR driver’s seat. And if you try hard to turn that around, you’ll just dig yourself in deeper."
Nice. It seems the queen has arrived at the same wisdom that I have. As a savage, I was eager to join in the ritualistic dissection. Perhaps a little too eager considering I was an outsider. My first input:
I like the advice to dump him, but [even telling him that you don't want to communicate] seems to be invitation for him to step up and claim/ mark you even more.
He could respond; “Well, actually I am hoping to be more than friends.”
Now you'd be even more confused and distraught.
Every little piece of communication is an investment. Even a simple text can contribute to attachment.
Guys know this. As long as you’re responding in some way, he thinks it’s on.
That’s why I say you just have to outright ignore his communication attempts. It’s the most powerful message you can send.
My presence was felt. The harmony disrupted.
Siren L: I LOVE this post and subsequently the remarks from Jason.
(That is me. I'm using a triple alias so no one knows that I'm really named Jason.)
Siren L: Jason says that responding is like a challenge. That is interesting food for thought.
Siren L: Oh… I forgot this… if I told them I was not interested in being 'friends' and they responded with… I am actually interested in being more than that… my response would be….. PROVE IT actions speak louder than words!
Then Outspoken Opinionated Princess steps in:
Yeah, but personally for me, NOTHING is more empowering than getting to the point where I actually want the guy back in my life as a friend AND it’s not controlling me. He’s back in my life AND I am already cultivating relationships with other men. For me, that is way more empowering than ignoring him. Cuz if I’m ignoring him, I’m still thinking about him. I still feel 'captive.'
I think... to vent this energy. I would use a combination of [the Queen's] tools, Emotional Freedom Technique, Reiki, and maybe start a blog or a journal. Something to vent it all so that it’s all GONE. And non-violent communication to turn the anger and hurt into communications that are about herself, rather than playing 'victim' to the guy and whatever he did...
Ignoring someone is not playing 'victim' - You are being your higher self by moving on. My reply:
This is assuming a lot of work to get it GONE. Savage to think about, but you could do one simple symbolic ritual to cut the heart-strings from this man.
Out of sight, out of mind, out of heart.
Now there’s room for the one who’s going to really rock your world to come on in.
But the OOP has a quick comeback:
Yeah, Jason, but what I’m saying is that sometimes if I ignore a guy, I actually end up thinking about him MORE. It feels all unresolved.
And I find for me personally it’s just better and easier to think of all men as open possibilities but know very firmly that I’m holding out for the man on my doorstep with an engagement ring and an offer I can’t refuse.
I advocate resolve through actively ignoring him and simple acts of symbolic detachment.
What you advocate is not resolve. It is not empowering. You are too afraid to bring things to an end. Too afraid to make a firm decision. Too afraid to dispel an energy that isn’t serving you.
Convince yourself that having him around as a friend is somehow serving you and you are limiting the ability of your holy relationship to penetrate you to your core. Disempowering.
Your attention and energy is too spread out. When your dream man steps up to your doorstep (not doormat) to claim you, you better be PRESENT.
I think it comes down to this:
A fear of abandonment is what creates this addictive sense of attachment. The worst possible outcome would be to be ignored. The greatest punishment would be abandonment. As long as he’s in my life — no matter the ridicule, humiliation, or abuse — at least I know I’m not being ignored.
Let it go.
What part of “DUMP HIM” don’t you understand?
Oh, damn. There's those experience-soaked opinions revealing themselves.
Siren D: That’s great and all… dealing with in my case a HUGE fear of abandonment that has me have difficulties with saying Goodbye...
I knew I had pushed some buttons. I hadn't meant to. OPP and Siren D fire a few more. I wanted the queen to step in. After all, we were in agreement, right?
I eagerly await [The Queen's] response...
Meanwhile, I have to do some work to provide for my family’s future….
…time and attention spent productively getting to that actual real-world doorstep…
…rather than maintaining attachment with exes who would be better served in their own lives by deliberately disregarding my friendship, no matter how much fondness and affection they feel toward me…
Now I'm remembering that sirens hate sarcasm... and logic.... and facts.
The queen does not step in. Now OOP thinks I know something personal:
Jason, I also feel mildly annoyed at the tone of the post, because what I hear is an implication that I and my male friends do not know how to find mutually beneficial ways of having our relationships.
I decide to ignore OOP, for now. I sit back and observe. I know, I'll give them some hypothetical questions:
This is a great discussion.
Here’s a useful perspective for everyone:
Consider that this guy who is sending you these communication ‘arrows’ — no matter how nice and friendly — is also sending them simultaneously to many women, to many ex lovers. (Trust me, he is.)
Consider that this guy is also in a committed long-term relationship while he is investing his time and attention maintaining ‘friendships’ with you and these other ex lovers. (Trust me, he probably is.)
Now, change the viewpoint, and consider that you are *that woman* and your committed long-term life partner, your man, is investing his precious time and energy in maintaining ‘harmless’ connections with ex lovers that are clearly not over him. For whatever reason he feels to need to continue pulling on these girls’ heart-strings.
How do you feel?
You can rationalize that the attention and affection that he is giving all these other women, to keep them invested and attached in some way, has no affect on you and your relationship.
But does it really?
That is time, energy, and effort that could be invested in the shared relationship that the two of you have. After all, he claimed you, you have a bond, a commitment, and an obligation to put each other first above all else and everybody else.
As a [Siren], how does this make you feel?
Do you really feel empowered knowing that he adores his past lovers and can’t let them go?
Are you encouraging him to feel more masculine by maintaining attachment to past lovers?
How does the openness, fondness, and affection that he shows his past lovers benefit you?
Makes sense to me. But sirens hate making sense... and 'considering'... and thinking...
The queen knows these thing, and has this to say:
This is great - okay - I’m going to let Jason be a man here, get opinionated and give advice…and I’m so glad it’s triggering you here…great practice! Jason - to me most of what you’re saying feels personal to you, and not judgmental - (I appreciate your looking over a comment before posting and making sure it’s not judgmental, because you are very, very helpful, and don’t want what you say to be disregarded because of “tone…”)
That said…I disagree with your advice to Daria in this way…imagining the “whole” is very nice. I like the concept, it feels meaningful, conscious…all that…but at bottom, it becomes way to “in your head.”
Remember, though you are sensitive, you are a man. You are most essentially in thought. What seems to you to be “logical,” and a logical and helpful process of thinking something through, on a woman doesn’t feel right. A woman has to be way more present in her OWN body, and believe me - all that you say has gone through Daria’s mind and all our minds…and all that really, actually does is mire us deeper in the quicksand.
This is a great topic in itself. Your masculine energy here is in very stark contrast to the feminine energy. See if you can notice the way it works. See how we instinctively rise up in some way with masculine energy of our own and start putting up defenses and respond with anger? It’s sort of a “Don’t tell me what to feel” thing - and it’s very similar to your male response of “Don’t tell me what to do…”
I sit back and notice that many of the sirens are relating, despite my masculine logic. The queen recommends the personal over the judgemental, so I respond:
I would like to point out another key distinction.
“True empowerment is neutrality…” --OOP
To me, true empowerment is equality.
“Equality is the antithesis of entitlement. Equality means that neither man nor woman is treated better or regarded more highly than the other, period. With equality, neither partner has rights or privileges superior to those of the other.” -- Marc Rudov
Maybe this is logical of me to point it out. But as an INFJ, I FEEL the distinction as well.
Similarly, equality has little to do with masculine-feminine polarity. We express our gender differences as masculine (doing, thinking, acting) and feminine (being, expressing, receiving) while seeing each other as peers, as equals. In a respectful and reciprocal relationship.
“As I see it, if I am avoiding any man or relationship, for any reason, then in some sense that man or relationship owns me.” --OOP
Anything you cannot walk away from OWNS YOU.
Back to the original point - walk away - ignore his communication attempts, and let it heal.
Siren C, I admire your strength in doing just this. This is the only way the pain can heal.
Siren AG — “I just ignored that text and haven’t had any contact since. but I can feel my energy moved so far from him but I feel good to follow things through until it feels GOOD to walk away.”
When you were responding it didn’t feel good. Even when you text him and say “stop texting me”… he still ever so subtly owns you… Whatever you can’t walk away from — people, possessions, careers, etc — owns you. Yes, I have a no-nonsense approach.
Siren G — “Maybe Jason is saying that we are wasting our time if we are working so hard to remove the pain just so that we can be friends with these guys who don’t want/deserve us.”
Yes. Working hard to remove pain is counterproductive. Walk away. The pain will heal on its own without your hardwork. Just like a bruise or a cut heals without your involvement. More importantly, you have now created space for worthy men to come into your life.
Siren L — “I agree... Move on. Don’t respond. I didn’t, I responded. It profited me nothing but more hurt and rejection to date.”
Exactly. Every little piece of communication is an investment that contributes to attachment. Maintaining contact under the guise of ‘friendship’ is still allowing him to have great influence over your emotions.
Siren Dg — “I felt strung along and used. I don’t even blame the men for that. I didn’t feel feminine, or open at all, I felt stupid and I felt easy. Like a puppie dog, that rolls over when the Master wants to rub it’s belly.”
Yes. It is disempowering to continue these friendships with ex lovers as harmless as it seems.
When in relationships, I used to string other women along. To feel desired, to feel adored and appreciated, to keep the current woman on her toes, to feel like there were always other options. I never wanted to close doors. Whatever the reason, it kept me from fully being present with the woman I was in a relationship with. These were all sweet women and the relationships were beautiful and unique. But I would always hem and haw with issues on marriage and children. I knew they were not the one, but I wanted to keep up the fun, and sex, and sense of adventure, and avoid the sense of abandonment that comes from walking away.
These are lines that always betray a fear - often mutual — of walking away:
Let’s just have fun and see where things go.
Let’s not have expectations.
Let’s just enjoy the moment while it lasts.
But the sex is so good!
But the friendship is so good!
Guilty. I call BS on my former self.
Only when I dropped communication cold with these ex lovers did I gain great clarity. This is when I realized specific visions of my future and my dream woman. This is when I created an opening for her to come into my life.
I dropped the friendliness, fondness, and affection that I was showing these past lovers. That’s it. Time to move on.
And I have massive respect for any ex lover that deliberately disregarded my attempts at remaining a part of her life.
This is a woman I can respect as a peer.
Energy cannot be destroyed. Instead of having my attention and energy spread all over the place, I have reclaimed it for me. As I said, I’ve gained great clarity because of this - I know exactly why I could never commit before, and I’ve stepped into my masculinity preparing myself for the one who really counts.
One more thought. It’s not Black vs White. I’m not turning friends into enemies. I’m simply reclaiming my energy and allowing these women to reclaim theirs. There is no hurt feelings, ill will, or animosity. But it’s not all warm, fuzzy, and soft either. It’s just not about the ego.
This goes far beyond the pleasure-pain dynamics of ego gratification. It’s a surrender into love and freedom at the same time.
I was happy to be relating something personal. I've historically been reluctant to do so. But I've recently realize concepts like 'disclosure' and 'transparency,' so I wanted the women of Siren Island to FEEL that my deciding to open up more about my thoughts, actions, and motives was so I could attract a mate with the same authenticity and directness. Like attracts like. I see that, and I FEEL that. A lot of this discussion was attempting to point out this principle to someone who seems blissfully unaware.
Siren C: Jason, I’m enjoying reading your posts and getting a guy’s perspective on this issue too.
Siren M: I like what you’re saying Jason. Let it go. Don’t respond at all, or…in my opinion…if you’ve already opened those lines and feel the need to say something to end it, I’d say…”You know what? I’m really just not that into you anymore.” and then…don’t respond again.
Siren AG: Jason, i feel bulldozed with opinions and directives.
Siren G: I love Jason’s last post.
Siren C: Jason: Wow, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for explaining why on earth a guy does this. You have clarified a lot in my mind and now I can stop asking myself “why?” and “what is he thinking?”
OOP submits this assumption:
One thing very triggering for me is my sense that Jason is talking about a specific male friend of mine. If so I want Jason to know that I don’t let any man tell me what I ’should’ do in my relationships with other men.
‘Should’ is a thought distortion that a person adopts when they are trying to be self-righteous.
I reviewed my posts and I never said you or anyone else ’should’ do anything. If I am otherwise coming across as self-righteous, then I say…… :P
You are my mirror, and I see the same attitude being reflected back at me. I like it.
As [The Queen] said, “I’m so glad it’s triggering you here…great practice!”
Now, I do not know any of your male friends and I assure you that I am not referencing anything or anyone specific. I will say that whatever is being triggered for you is going to help you. Notice it, feel it, tap into it. Play with it.
Awareness is curative.
Siren M — “When things end in his current relationship, he’ll be back and he’ll be wanting sex and he’ll be saying all the right things…and…we’ll start an old pattern.”
Yep. Gotta walk away. Keeping that door open no matter how friendly, nice, or harmless it seems is inviting him to play with your heart-strings again some day.
Siren G — “And he says ‘possibly…let’s see how things pan out this week. I don’t like to plan more than 2 days in advance.’ ugh. He’s totally pulling a former-Jason.”
Yep. This is how we behave. This is how we keep you attached and invested.
Siren AG — “anything YOU can not walk away from owns YOU.”
This is a masculine statement. And also true.
If I say, “I feel and believe deep in my heart and also based on my past experiences that anything you find yourself unwilling to walk away from subtlely has the effect of ownership over you and your behavior” doesn’t make it any less true.
I could say just think about it.
But that is masculine.
But notice how your are FEELING it. It resonates with you. It triggers you.
Anything that triggers you is based in truth.
Do you have the audacity to question my veracity? :P
I appreciate everyone’s wonderful comments.
Why is OOP feeling so personally triggered? Could it be that I am her mirror? Could it be that we are esentially saying the same things with different words? She is quick to respond:
Neutral once sounded boring to me, too. But now I see it as the launching pad for joy (which is different than the fleeting ups we get when something specific happens).
Neutral has also been the launchpad for marriage propositions. I’ve had five serious ones and one semi-serious one in the past 15 months, and they all came in situations where I was not (or no longer) infatuated with a guy. Appreciation is magnetic, infatuation pushes guys away because no one likes being on a pedestal.
One of the marriage propositions came recently from a guy I met a couple of years ago. We’ve gone through every phase, and if I had written him off like some people are recommending on this thread, our relationship never would have flowered.
I actually really, really disagree with Jason’s description of a man’s thought process. Perhaps that’s true for Jason, but I have found that the more I assume the best about men, the more they come through for me in all kinds of unexpected ways.
Also, and again I’m not judging what anyone else does, but this is another area where my “no casual sex” position helps me out a lot. It is very easy for me to allow a man back into my life as a friend because I know there is zero chance I’ll have sex with him and get hormonally hooked unless he commits to me.
This allows an instant reframe. He is still attracted to me, but the only way he can have me is to step up fully. For me, that is the end of infatuation. He is on a level playing field with all the other guys I’m circular dating … until one steps up that I want to say “yes” to …
I don’t know if this will resonate with anyone else. I often seem to be a minority view on here.
Also, about the 'pink elephant' … yes that’s exactly what I mean. In fact, if a woman wants to get over a guy quickly, I recommend exactly the opposite of “forget him.” I recommend forcing yourself to obsess about him relentlessly … because you will soon get so bored with obsessing that you’ll wonder why you were ever obsessed.
When I say to myself 'I have to get over this guy,' there is a rebellious part of me that will hold on indefinitely. When I give myself permission to get over it whenever I get over it, I usually find that I’m already over it.
Interesting, logically she's making sense. A logical siren, imagine that. :P
The island weighs in:
Siren AG (who never capitalize 'i' in referecne to herself) : i feel bad jason but i may not respond even if you address me personally.
Siren J: Jason, I Thank you for your insight! what you cant walk away from owns you! words to live by! You touched on abandonment issues, fear of letting go.. I felt my heart sink, it triggered me. The light came on, and memories came flooding back. Fear! I am afraid of being left, of loss, not measuring up. Thank you Jason! I can face my fears, now that I know what they are. Also I thank you for sharing your past! I get it now!!! I dont have to wonder what he is thinking, or why he says one thing and does another, its about his ego, his self esteem, he isnt happy with his self either!!! he is looking for my validation!!! lol!! WOW THAT FEELS SOOOOOO MUCH BETTER! I feel in control now!!!
Siren G says one of two critical intutions that I'm having: OPP, I can’t seem to find the words to articulate this sense that I have that the 5 men who proposed are an example of what Jason meant by spreading yourself too thin. I know that was a very triggering statement he made, but here’s how it translates for me in terms of feelings: the thought of a bunch of proposals feels heavy and ugh to me. When I think of circular dating, I think of energy, and sort of a revolving door. And then, eventually, one guy won’t get out, and if I don’t want to kick him out, he gets exclusive access to my door (hehe). I don’t want a bunch of men loitering, jamming up the door, annoying me, making it unclear as to who is there and why, and whether I want them around.
And you rejected the proposals. So I would want them outta there to make room for the one I’d say yes to.
Then I got a personal request to leave the island. I don not know which siren it was from - I no not care. It was not by The Queen.
I could have been a real provacatuer and stayed. But I didn't want to. I had a lively visit. I had plenty of material for this thoughtful article. I had not real reason to stay longer. I took my own advice:
Anything you can't walk away from owns you.
I packed up my opinions and caught the redeye back to the air-conditioned cave of the savvy savage.
I have been not-so-kindly asked to not contribute anymore here. Apparently my “communication arrows” were a bit too sharp. So I am going to take my own advice and walk away.
And that's the tale of my visit to Siren Island.
And let me tell you, the impact of my visit is still talked about to this day...
Siren G: Aaaw! I’m sad that Jason is leaving. I hope you make another appearance soon...
Siren AG: i feel bad jason got himself kicked off siren island.
(Asumption. I chose to leave.)
Siren D: I feel amused Jason was asked not to post. I wonder if [The Queen] or [OOP] asked him …
Siren J: Jason, I would love to hear more from you!!!
Siren M: This is so frustrating! We finally had an opportunity to learn here. We had a man…telling us what he thinks from a man’s point of view. He got triggered and reacted exactly the way men react when we trigger them.
Siren M: Jason said in one of his comments that he liked the discussion. He’s never said that in any other post here. He liked the way things were going. We were challenging him. We were speaking a language he understood. At some point we crossed a line. And instead of being taught how to turn that back around and get him to enjoy discussing the issue with us again...we told him to leave.
(It was one personal request -- not a 'we.' I didn't HAVE to leave, I chose to.)
Siren Dk: Jason is a man - he spoke the way that men speak and what I have trouble with is responding to a man with feminine voice when he is speaking with masculine voice - but that is the very practice, practice, practice I need. I know we feel more comfortable when we frame things from our own point of view in this forum, but that isn’t what men do. I feel lost opportunity here.
Siren P: This is a very interesting thread indeed. I feel disappointed that Jason was asked to leave-his comments made a lot of sense to me and I thought it was good to get triggered anyway, and learn something from why we’re so triggered instead of getting petty. I feel angry that a guy shows up on here who is mature enough to contribute some very thought provoking stuff in a non-threatening (if a lttle patronising) way gets asked to leave…..
Siren Ak: Wow, what a fascinating thread! Especially the part where Jason was voted off Siren Island. For one, I found his comments incredibly triggering, but safely triggering in a forum like this where our collective experiences and support were there to soothe me. It’s also helpful for me to view all of this “from the other side.”
Siren C: Hi Jason. I’m also sorry to see you go, you gave me a real 'aha' moment... I would like to pick your brain some more if you have the time/inclination.
Siren N: I feel indifferent about Jason. I feel appreciative of him sharing and attempting to protect us. But it also feels limiting and impatient to me.
Siren D: I feel annoyed. I feel amused that people are upset Jason left. hehehe… I am literally laughing out loud…
Siren G: I didn’t mind Jason leaving, but I didn’t like it when I sensed people pushing him away or unwilling to hear the truth of what he was saying underneath his egoistic tone.
Siren D: I feel bored and interested in calling out Jason on his 'tone'… I felt good when he addressed my comment and said he felt particularly intrigued by that… I felt special…
Siren An: I’m feeling triggered myself right now. Jason is a man who brought himself, willing, into a blog full of women. That took alot of courage. I applaude you for that. Thank you for sharing while you were here.
Will I ever return to Siren Island?
That's yet to be determined. I enjoyed my stay and the stimulating discussion. But overall, the phrase comes to mind: Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
Perhaps I'll just find a nice siren and bring her back to my island...
PS. I was compelled to look up the origin of the word 'community.' It comes from the Latin 'munus,' which means the gift, and 'cum,' which means together, among each other. So community literally means to give among each other.